Astra Militarum/Imperial Guard "Wiki"

Ave Omnissiah!

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My blog is primarily my own personal fluff in the Warhammer 40,000 universe regarding the Draconis system such as the Knight House Yato in Draconis III, the Imperial Guard...I mean, Astra Militarum regiment trained there, the Draconian Armored Force, and the Forge World of Draconis IV with its Adeptus Mechanicus priesthood, Cybernetica cohorts and Skitarii legions, and perhaps the Titan Legion, Legio Gojira.

Oh, and I'll throw in the Thousand Sons from time to time because they're my favorite Space Marine Legion. I refuse to believe that they are Traitors! They're just...ahem...secretly loyal to the Imperium!

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Beginner's Guide to playing Thousand Sons

All right, so you've read all the awesome lore on the Thousand Sons, beginning with A Thousand Sons  by Graham McNeill  and culminatin...

Wednesday, June 7, 2017

Battle Report 13

Here's another 8th Edition Battle Report, my 2nd in as many days. I'm going to need help, but I think only Jesse will probably reply, but there is something seriously wrong with my list. Please tell me if there's something wrong, if my list isn't legal, or if I've added the points wrongly. Anything. I'm asking this because the game today went horribly wrong.

Let's start with my list. It was a 2,000-point game because my opponent wanted matched play instead of narrative where I suggested we throw together quick lists using the power ratings. Nope, he wanted points, and I thought he had a point, so we ended up having matched play.

Imperial Knight household, supported by an Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion led by Tech-priests Dominus and manned by Skitarii soldiers.
So I cobbled together a list with the models I currently have. My other armies, like my Imperial Guard army with all my Leman Russ tanks, Vendetta gunships, Militarum Tempestus Scions, Chimera APCs and Knight Crusader, as well as my Stormsword (which I will convert to a Shadowsword later) are still with a store employee, packed away in boxes somewhere in his storeroom (because I left them with him when I left for Minnesota). So I only had my Adeptus Mechanicus army and my 3 Imperial Knights, which I threw together into a 2,000-point list.

I took one Super-heavy Detachment for the 3 Command Points benefit, and then a Battalion Detachment for another 3 Command Points, for a total of 9. Because I like abusing the system. Okay, maybe not, but it seemed like the only viable list for me to play. Anyway, please take a look through it and let me know if there's anything, anything wrong at all with my list. Is it legal? Did I miscalculate? Did I miss out on some hidden costs somewhere? Am I mistaken and Knights are actually more expensive than what I read here? Or is it my Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion Detachment that is illegal?

Super-heavy Detachment (Imperial Knights)
Knight Paladin 320 + 100 (rapid-fire battle cannon) + 2x4 (heavy stubbers) + 30 (Reaper chainsword) = 458
Knight Errant 320 + 76 (thermal cannon) + 4 (heavy stubber) + 30 (Reaper chainsword) = 430
Knight Warden 320 + 95 (Avenger gatling cannon) + 4 (heavy stubber) + 30 (Reaper chainsword) + 17 (heavy flamer) = 466
Total: 1,354

Battalion Detachment (Adeptus Mechanicus)
Tech-priest Dominus 125 + 8 (volkite blaster) + 2 (stubcarbine) = 135
Tech-priest Dominus 125 + 14 (eradicator ray) + 2 (stubcarbine) = 141
Skitarii Vanguard 10x10 = 100
Skitarii Rangers 5x10 = 50
Kataphron Destroyers 3x[35 + 27 (plasma culverin) + 11 (cognis flamer)] = 3x73 = 219
Total: 645

Absolute total: 1,999

Is the total cost of my list correct? I didn't make any mistake, right? Just to confirm, I did not purchase any carapace weapons for my Imperial Knights because I didn't have enough points. So I did not use the Stormspear rocket pod or twin Icarus autocannons at all. Even if you see the Stormspear rocket pod in the photos, treat it as broken. I never fired a single Stormspear rocket at all, and I treated the Knight as not having one. Assuming I had that correct, is everything else all right to you? Does the list looks all right to you? Are there any mistakes?

As a point of comparison, here is my opponent's list. I think he used a single Battalion Detachment and only had 6 Command Points total compared to my 9.

Battalion Detachment (Blood Angels)

Yeah, he used a Blood Angels list. Anyway, back to Blood Angels, here is what he had.

Sanguinor 170
2 Baal Predators 107x2 + 70 (assault cannon) + 40 (heavy bolters) = 324
Death Company with jumppacks 5x20+20 = 120
Death Company Dreadnaught 128+50+17 (meltagun, I think) = 195
2 Drop pods 103x2 + 2x2 (storm bolters, I believe) = 210
2 tactical squads of Space Marines 130x2 + 17 (meltagun) x2 + 25 (missile launchers) x2 = 344
Sanguinary Priest with jumppack 86 + power sword + 4 = 90 (?)
9 Sanguinary Guard 22x9 + 9x9 + 4x16 + 4x13 + 20 = 198 + 81 + 64 + 52 + 20 = 415
Sanguinary Ancient thingy with a banner - he never wrote this guy down but yet used him in the game. Oh well. I assume it's 107 points.
Total: 1,868 without the Sanguinary Ancient, 1,975 points if I assume it's 107 because that's what my opponent told me. He only had 1,975 points.

Does his list look all right to you guys, or is there something missing? Like, did he mistakenly add up his costs and his units are actually cheaper than he thought they are? Stuff like that.

We rolled off, got Maelstrom, I rolled a 6 and got Cleanse and Conquer or Cleanse or something. We set up the terrain, we took turns to deploy our units, but since I was the first one to finish deploying, I get to choose whether I want to start first. I said yes, and he tried to seize the initiative but failed.

Time to cleanse and conquer!
Turn 1
We had some weird deployment where it angled up to some spike at the center of the table. Heh. Basically I rolled a 5 for the deployment zone, and we both took the opposite lengths of the table but it was a zone that was widest at the center and narrowest at the sides.

Anyway, I put all the odd numbered objectives at my end and the center, and he put the even numbered objectives on his end and the center. I had my Skitarii Rangers camp over Objective 3 and my Skitarii Vanguard and the Tech-priest Dominus (my Warlord?) camp on Objective 1, all three units including the Warlord in cover. My Knight Paladin stood watch over Objective 1. My Knight Errant and Knight Warden were deployed further to the right. And then my remaining Tech-priest Dominus with the volkite blaster and his Kataphron Destroyer-pattern heavy battle servitors took cover near objective 3.

My opponent placed one tactical combat squad with the missile launcher at one corner of the table, hiding inside cover. He placed a second combat squad with the missile launcher in some ruins to capture objective 2, I think. He kept the remaining 5-men combat squads with meltaguns in reserve, by placing them inside drop pods. The Dreadnaught was hunkering in front of the ruin where the second combat squad was, and the Sanguinary Priest was right next to him. The two Baal Predators were located all the way on the other end of his deployment zone, parked behind cover.

I drew three tactical objectives, which is to hold objective 1 for 2 turns, hold objective 6 for 2 turns, and behind enemy lines. I know I couldn't get the third one, and objective 1 was already under my control, so yay. I moved my Knight Errant up to claim Objective 6, and my Knight Warden to get Objective 5 even though I didn't really need it. But hey, might as well, right?

Blood Angels getting bloody
The shooting began, and my Knight Errant fluffed his thermal cannon shot and only dealt 3 wounds to one Baal Predator. Oh well. My Kataphron Destroyers fired their plasma culverins and erased 4 of the Space Marines in the tactical squad hiding inside the ruins, leaving just the guy with the missile launcher. Oh well. Still a great job. My Knight Warden then fired his heavy stubber at the last survivor, but he made his armor saves, and passed morale eventually despite losing 4 dudes. My Knight Warden then pinged the Dreadnaught with his Avenger gatling cannon, and only did 2 wounds. Not very effective shooting there. I couldn't hit anything with his heavy flamer, but that heavy flamer turned out to be most valuable weapon. The Skitarii Rangers fired at the Dreadnaught but did absolutely nothing.

My Knight Paladin was my true MVP, though. His heavy stubbers did nothing to the Space Marine combat squad in the corner, but his rapid-fire battle cannon squashed them into nothingness. First Blood for me.

My opponent then dropped his drop pods right in front of my Knight Warden, and another right in front of my Kataphron Destroyers. He Deep Strike his Sanguinary Guard, Sanguinor and Sanguinary Ancient 9" away from my Skitarii Vanguard and Tech-priest Dominus. He also moved his Dreadnaught forward toward my Knight Warden and jump-packed his Sanguinary Priest somewhere. Oh, and then he healed his Dreadnaught back to full health with the Sanguinary Priest's ability. Cool.

But he forgot to Deep Strike his Death Company. Whoops.

He then shot whatever he could. His 2 Baal Predators fired their assault cannons and heavy bolters at my Knight Errant, who made some saves, but eventually took about 2 or 3 wounds. Phew. Not very effective shooting, I must say. His drop pods fired their storm bolters and took about about 3 Skitarii Rangers, I think. His Sanguinary Guard fired their bolters and killed 3 Skitarii Vanguard. His tactical squads fired their meltaguns, and I think I made my saves for my Knight Paladin while my Knight Warden suffered quite a bit of damage both from the meltagun, combi-melta and the multi-melta from the Dreadnaught. Then he charged.

Needless to say, my Skitarii Vanguard did nothing in overwatch, but only the Sanguinary Guard made it in close combat. The Sanguinor and the Sanguinary Ancient failed their charges, but it mattered not. The Dreadnaught failed its charge, then my opponent used a Command Point to re-roll his charge and succeeded the second time. After that, the Dreadnaught pummeled my poor Imperial Knight with his fists and dropped him to about 9 wounds. I think.

Ouch. That hurts. That really hurts.

I fought back and my Knight Warden managed to deal a measly 6 wounds to the Dreadnaught with his Reaper chainsword, thanks to his WS going down to 4+ after taking more than 12 wounds. Sigh. As for the Sanguinary Guard, needless to say, they utterly destroyed my Skitarii Vanguard in close combat, and my entire Skitarii squad was wiped out. My Tech-priest Dominus, who was dragged into the fight since he was 1" away, did a single wound, but the Sanguinary Guard, having Terminator armor, made their armor saves and survived.

My opponent had drawn claim objective 3 and objective 4, I think, and he earned a point for claiming objective 4. Score was 1-1.

The Baal Predators are looking quite predatory.
Turn 2
I was thinking things were looking bad for me. I moved my Knight Errant further up but still within Objective 6, so that I could claim 2 points for my objectives.

I had my Knight Warden fall back from the Dreadnaught because being a super-heavy walker, he could still fire even if he fell back. Cool. On the other hand, my warlord Tech-priest Dominus had no such ability, but I made him fall back anyway, because reasons. I also moved my Knight Paladin up a little so as to, you know, make sure I pass the charge.

I then used the Canticles of Omnissiah and received Benediction of the Omnissiah so that I can re-roll 1s to hit. Why? Because plasma, that's why. With that blessing in place, I swiveled my Kataphron Destroyers around and blasted the Sanguinary Guard with their plasma culverins, and I supercharged it. Even with 2 wounds, the Sanguinary Guard were basically annihilated, with only 2 survivors. I killed 7 of those winged bastards with the supercharged plasma shots. Yeah, supercharging was worth it if you can re-roll those 1s. Hell, yeah!

My 3 surviving Skitarii Rangers fired on the tactical squad closest to them and did absolutely nothing with their galvanic rifles. Oh well. My Tech-priest Dominus also fired on the tactical squad, but with his terrible AP, he did f all. Well, his job is something else, so who cares about that.

My Knight Errant then fired on the wounded Baal Predator, but fluffed his shots again and only did another 3 wounds. With 11 wounds, the Baal Predator still had 5 left after taking 2 thermal cannon hits. And the other Baal Predator was still at full health. Scary.

My Knight Warden unleashed his heavy flamer on the Death Company Dreadnaught because that was the only enemy unit within 8" range of the heavy flamer...and what do you know, he killed the damned walker with a heavy flamer. Did 2 wounds, and the Dreadnaught failed his armor saves and boom! It...was incinerated. Now that's something you'll never see in 7th Edition. I mean, with 13 front armor and 12 side armor, there's no way a Strength 5 heavy flamer would wound a Dreadnaught. But now a heavy flamer wounds it on a 5+! Wow!

The heavy stubbers of the Knight Errant and Knight Warden did absolutely f all against the tactical squad in front of the latter. So I fired my Avenger gatling cannon and probably only killed 1 or 2 of them. I think 2.

My Knight Paladin, being the MVP that he is, glomped about 2 dudes with his battle cannon. Let's not mention the heavy stubber, because they suck against Space Marines having 2+ armor save in cover. So I charged them and stomped the surviving 3 to death. Oh, I elected not to charge my poor Knight Warden because he had only about 9 wounds left and I didn't want him to lose any more to overwatch. Ugh.

My Knight Paladin, the MVP of my game.
My opponent finally brought his Death Company down behind my Knight Warden. Grenades didn't work, one drop pod's storm bolters killed a third Skitarii Ranger, but that's about it. The second drop pod's storm bolters did nothing against my Kataphron Destroyers. The wounded Baal Predator fired on my Knight Errant and took a few more wounds off him, and he still had about 18 left. Wow, they're pretty tough to kill.

Then the second Baal Predator, the remaining melta guy and whoever, including the Sanguinary Priest who jumppacked forward with his thunder hammer, all fired upon the wounded Knight Warden and slowly plinked him down to just 4 wounds. Ouch. My opponent must be so frustrated, not being able to kill the guy despite throwing so many shots at him. He even fired the missile from the missile launcher guy and failed to wound. I think he actually fluffed his melta shot, so he spent a second Command Point to re-roll to wound, and finally did it to hack my poor Knight down to the aforementioned 4 wounds (otherwise my Knight would have 7 or 8).

The 2 remaining Sanguinary Guard, upon passing their morale test, had been jumppacking toward my Kataphron Destroyers and remaining Tech-priest Dominus while the Sanguinor was advancing toward my Warlord Tech-priest Dominus. The Ancient remained in limbo, probably not knowing what to do, but while he fired ineffectively against my Knight Paladin, he didn't charge the guy. The Sanguinary Guard put 1 wound on my Kataphron Destroyers, being better shooters than the drop pods.

Then everyone charged. The Sanguinary Guard charged my Kataphron Destroyers and tanked the cognis flamers and snapshooting plasma culverins with their freaking 2+ armor save, and made it into combat. On the other hand, the last tactical squad that charged, while they failed to make their charge, they lost nobody because they made all their armor saves, and my Knight Warden barely hit any of them with overwatch, the heavy flamer actually rolling a 1 for hits. Oh well. Ironically enough, thanks to a hilarious combination of bad luck and...uh, well, an ill-advised charge, my Knight Warden actually wiped out the Death Company squad with a combination of heavy flamer shots and Avenger gatling cannon shots. I told you the heavy flamer was MVW. No, it might actually be the Avenger gatling cannon. Or both. The Sanguinary Priest also charged, and he was incinerated to death or peforated by the Avenger gatling cannon. Whatever the case, he died to overwatch. The Sanguinor charged my Tech-priest Dominus gain, who had fallen back during my turn, and I actually put a single wound on him with overwatch. Dude has 5 wounds, so 4 left though. Not much difference.

The Sanguinor mopped the floor with my Tech-priest Dominus and slew him in close combat, thus earning my opponent Slay the Warlord. The Sanguinary Guard went to town on my poor Kataphron Destroyers. They inflicted 6 wounds, I think, and killed 2 of my Kataphron Destroyers. The last one barely survived with about 2 wounds left. Sucking at combat, he took a swing and missed spectacularly. Well, I expected that. And then my Tech-priest Dominus, having been dragged into combat, swung with his Omnissiah's axe and beheaded one of the Sanguinary Guard. Oh, wow. Now I didn't expect that. So I elected to keep him in combat to finish the guy off during my turn. On the other hand, both the 2 surviving Skitarii Rangers and the lone remaining Kataphron Destroyer passed their morale tests.

My Knights prove to be quite the Knightmare for my opponent.
So my opponent had 2 points and I had 3. At this point, he called it quits. He had so few models left on the table that there was nothing he could do. My Knight Errant was facing down his 2 Baal Predators, my Knight Warden would probably kill that last tactical squad, and I even have a full-health Knight Paladin getting ready to squash either the Sanguinor or the ancient in melee combat. There was absolutely nothing he could do. He failed to kill any of my Knights. Even though my Knight Warden was badly wounded, with only 1/6 of his wounds left, he was still alive. Seeing that, my opponent was totally demoralized.

It was a little too one-sided to the point that my opponent was literally in tears by the end of the game. Okay, maybe not that bad. But I could see that he was pissed off. And I don't blame him. To be frank, I probably would be furious if I were in his shoes. It was just a one-sided massacre. My Imperial Knights were too strong. My opponent was so enraged he demanded that I re-check my list and he was adamant that I had miscalculated somehow, that the Imperial Knights might actually be more expensive than I thought they were. He was certain I made a mistake with the Imperial Knights' costs, and I had to add them up in front of him to prove that I had been mathematically correct. He then accused me of using an illegal detachment, that there was no such detachment for Imperial Knights, and again I showed him the Super-heavy Detachment that you can see above, that I was using the Detachment as labeled in the new rulebook.

So yeah...perhaps something is very wrong here. Do you know? Even though my opponent spent 2 out of his 6 Command Points, I still had 9 Command Points left, and I didn't even use a single one. Not a single one. Yup, you got it. I still had 9 Command Points left, along with 3 surviving Imperial Knights that are very much alive (well, the Knight Warden was 1/6 alive).

All I can say is...Throne on Terra. This is the second time I played such a one-sided game. I just came out of a match where I essentially tabled a Genestealer Cultist list with just 2 Imperial Knights, and now I bloodied the Blood Angels in a 2,000-point game with 3 Imperial Knights and an additional Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion. I'm beginning to feel very bad for my opponents. Both of them. I'm actually very apologetic to the second one today, he sounded extremely frustrated and pissed off at how lopsided the game was. True, he wiped out an entire squad of Skitarii Vanguard and slew my Warlord, but that's about it. I took out more than half his army - 3 combat squads wiped (with 1 still hanging on with a single guy with a missile launcher, and the sole surviving one at half-strength), the Sanguinary Priest, the Death Company, the Death Comany Dreadnaught, and 8 out of 9 Sanguinary Guard all dead. In just 2 turns. If it had continued onto the 3rd turn. that last combat squad would most likely be erased, and I would be able to kill at least one Baal Predator and leave another severely damaged. And I probably would have stomped his Sanguinor to death with my Knight Paladin, provided he survived the rapid-fire cannon. By the end of my 3rd turn, he would only have 1 severely damaged Predator (if it was lucky enough to survive a 3rd thermal cannon shot), 2 drop pods and 1 Ancient left. I would still have 3 Imperial Knights - 1 almost at full health, the other at half health, and the 3rd barely hanging on with 1/6 health, a 2nd Tech-priest Dominus and probably that Kataphron Destroyer, and those 2 Skitarii Rangers hanging onto objective 3. Oh, and thanks to me charging that Baal Predator, I'll have scored Behind Enemy Lines for another point. Praise the Omnissiah.

Don't forget, not only did I not give my Imperial Knights carapace weapons, I have yet to spend even a single Command Point. How the heck is he supposed to turn the game around? I understand why he decided to call it quits by the end of the second turn. Not only was more than half his army utterly destroyed...probably about 75% if we count it by model count, 31 out of 42, while my Imperial Knights are still towering over the survivors, he didn't have enough forces left to claim objectives. Yeah, he had quite the terrible luck.

Are Imperial Knights supposed to be this strong? Doesn't this two matches show that something is amiss? Imbalanced, even? Or did I make a mistake somewhere with my list? Please, I'm all ears here. I need my advice, or even if you think it's my opponent, then let me know so that I can pass the message on to him. Should he have taken Predators with 4 lascannons instead of assault cannons and heavy bolters? What should he have done differently? Or is my list completely illegal? Thanks in advance, and I look forward to hearing from any of you.

I really don't want to see any of my other opponents snap like this future, and while it is fun stomping opponents, it is not fun watching them, uh, suffer. I'm of the motion that fun is most fun only when everyone is having fun. Me having fun alone while my opponent is seething in frustration and fury does not constitute a good gaming environment, and to be honest, it makes me feel bad. I'm not gaming to feel guilty, I play to have fun, and I want my opponents to have as much fun as I do. This is just too...ugh. I can understand my opponent breaking down into tears at the end (nah, men don't cry). I probably would have snapped if this happened to me. Not only that, I am worried that I will not be able to find any opponents in future.

Anyway, no point dwelling on this. We need solutions, either by clearing up that my list is indeed illegal and I've inadvertently cheated somehow by paying less points for my Imperial Knights than is stipulated in the new index, or telling my opponent that he had brought the wrong army to the table.


  1. I'll be able to respond better later this week, having a friend put together a 3 Knight list for me to play against so I can see if my theory-hammer is correct but from my armchair across the sea in Canada it looks to me like your opponents are bringing 7th Ed lists to 8th Ed.

    Knights are very powerful, and I think a little undercosted (Wraithknights have the exact same stats but are 402pts base instead of 320) but not by too much I don't think.

    The bigger problem is the Knights are the quintessential 8th Ed unit in terms of changes. They are easier to Wound than they were (T8 is sooo much easier to hurt now) but shrug off much more damage.

    Not only do they have a 3+ save now, but with 24 Wounds they really don't care about taking a few hits here and there. Glancing them to death is not an option.

    I don't see a lot of hard-hitting (as in high Damage) weapons in either of those lists. The traditional 7th ed strategy of drowning things in mid-strength shits with no AP value (scatter lasers, Necron Tesla, Tau missile pods) just does not work in 8th edition. It's great for clearing Infantry now, but it doesn't do f all to heavy vehicles (as you noticed).

    I think your opponents need to change up their playstyle, but I'll have better advice after I play against 3 Knights myself.

    1. All right, I'll let him know next week. I...probably won't be returning to the local gaming store for the rest of the week anyway, will wait for this to blow over.

      Hmm, okay. But yeah, you're probably right. I was asking him why he used Baal Predators with assault cannons and heavy bolters instead of giving each of them 4 lascannons, and he was complaining about how they cost so much more. But indeed assault cannons used to glance Knights to death in 7th Edition. I think he was still in that mentality. And instead of of lascannons he brought missile launchers.

      This Blood Angels list was better than the Genestealer Cultists in that it had lots of melta guns. The 2 tactical squads had a meltagun each, and one Sergeant had a combi-melta. The Dreadnaught also had a melta (multi-melta, I think), so...oh, that's only 4 meltas in the entire list. Plus 2 missile launchers. And the Baal Predators, oddly enough, didn't bring lascannons but assault cannons and heavy bolters instead. You're probably right, he needs a lot more melta than that.

    2. Don't even need more melta, Lascannons are really good now with the D6 Damage. Better against Knights because they Wound on a 3+ instead and you can stay far, far away!

    3. Sanguinor 170 <- Kills Infantry.
      2 Baal Predators 107x2 + 70 (assalt cannon) + 40 (heavy bolters) = 324 <- Kills Infantry.
      Death Company with jumppacks 5x20+20 = 120 <- Kills infantry.
      Death Company Dreadnaught 128+50+17 (meltagun, I think) = 195 <- Tank/Monster killer.
      2 Drop pods 103x2 + 2x2 (storm bolters, I believe) = 210
      2 tactical squads of Space Marines 130x2 + 17 (meltagun) x2 + 25 (missile launchers) x2 = 344 <- Kills some infantry, some light vehicles, can damage Tanks/Monsters.
      Sanguinary Priest with jumppack 86 + power sword + 4 = 90 (?) <- Kills infantry.
      9 Sanguinary Guard 22x9 + 9x9 + 4x16 + 4x13 + 20 = 198 + 81 + 64 + 52 + 20 = 415 <- Kills infantry.
      Sanguinary Ancient thingy with a banner - he never wrote this guy down but yet used him in the game. Oh well. I assume it's 107 points. <- Kills infantry.

      So he had 3 units that were potentially a threat to your Knights, and only 1 (the DC Dreadnaught) that was a serious threat.

      It's... it's not a good list to be honest. It would have been in 7th, but the game has REALLY changed. You can't rely on mid-Strength (S5-7) attacks to handle all targets anymore, it just doesn't work that way (and honestly I'm really happy it doesn't anymore, that was getting boring).

    4. Thank you very much for the analysis, I need to show this to my opponnent and let him know. That explains why the game was so one-sided. I really appreciate it!

  2. Well, Knights are still Knights ... It was not nice to bring 3 of them in a 7th edition game without your opponent knowing about it up front (I don't know if he knew about it or not) and it is not nice to put 'em up vs someone in 8th.

    They are very tough as Jesse mentioned, and I think the lack of high strength multiple damage weapons in his list was his demise. His list had nothing in order to handle 3 T8 with 24 wounds and 3+ save monsters.

    1. He knows, we agreed on it beforehand. It was the only list I could bring to the table anyway, as I said, most of my Imperial Guard army was with the store employee, but yeah, we had an understanding before we began. I told him I only have 3 Imperial Knights along with my Adeptus Mechanicus army, and he was okay with it.

      After that, he wasn't okay with it. But neither of us expected the result to be so lopsided.

    2. 72 Wounds at T8 3+ Save is a lot, but, to put it in context that's the exact equivalent of 6 Leman Russ tanks (but with less firepower than 6 Leman Russ tanks, way more melee ability though).

      An 8th edition list NEEDS to be able to handle that stat-line. It's a very common stat-line:

      Monolith - T8 20W 3+
      Mork/Gorkanaut - T8 18W 3+
      Stompa - T8 40W 3+ <--- seriously 40 freaking Wounds.
      Leman Russ - T8 12W 3+
      Haruspex - T8 13W 3+
      Exocrine - T8 12W 3+
      Tervigon - T8 14W 3+
      Tyrannofex - T8 14W 3+
      Exorcist - T8 12W 3+

      Ok, I'm bored of writing these out haha, and I haven't even checked the various Space Marine chapters yet or any Chaos. So yah, I agree that 3 Knights are mean, but if your opponent is getting tabled each time before turn 3 then they have significantly bigger problems than the Knights.

      Although maybe I am talking out of my ass, haha, we'll find out Friday! My friend is taking the exact same 3 Knights as you, and then filling the rest with Space Wolves. I'm taking a Tyranid list that I think will be very good, but is definitely not geared towards killing Knights. It's the 2000pt tournament list I've been developing.

    3. Good luck! Make sure you learn from my opponents' mistakes and bring the right tools to the table! And thanks!

    4. So after getting my game in I can assuredly state that while Knights do hit really hard, the absolute stunning loses by your opponents was because they had not really understood the changes 8th brought, and therefore did not bring very good lists (I haven't met any of you in person, haha, so I'm just going on the assumption that these are your regular gaming associates/friends and that you are by-and-large equally skilled).

      We called the game at the end of Round 3 with a Tyranid victory because it was obvious I was going to table my opponent easily turn 4. That's not to say I didn't have a hard fought game, my army was about 75% annihilated, but her last Knight (which was also her last model) had only 4 Wounds left going into Round 4.

      You can read the full battle-report here:

      I'd love to know what you think. Also, I should point out, I did NOT tailor my list to fight Knights, this is the 2,000pt Take All Comers list I've been developing for tournaments.

    5. Oh wow, that was a pretty awesome battle report. It certainly was much more even and balanced than the 2 games I had.

      I do have a few quesitons, though. From what I saw you used points, so I'm assuming you did matched play. If that's the case, I believe you can use the Stratagems only once per phase. But in the fighting phase of turn 2 (I believe), you used it twice, one to re-roll the Hive Tyrant's invulnerable saves, and then you used it again in the same phase for counter-offensive. Isn't that, uh, illegal? And is the charge phase considered a separate phase from the fight phase now? From what I saw, in the first turn, you re-rolled your charge, and then used counter-offensive as well, but if they are considered different phases then there shouldn't be a problem.

      Other than that, wow, what a game. I feel for the Knights. I wonder if your girlfriend/wife (since you have a waifu knight, so go get married already) used a wrong list. Wouldn't be she better served using flamers instead of a plasma cannon and grenades? Or maybe Space Wolves can't take flamers, I don't play them (usually play against them and they bring lots of melta against my tanks and Knights). But from what I see, she used a patrol detachment instead of a Battalion. Maybe Space Wolves cost a lot more than an Adeptus Mechanicus Battalion?

      I would love to see how the Tyranids would fare against the Adeptus Mechanicus, because my Kataphron Destroyers have cognis flamers, and the Skitarii Vanguard's rad carbines might do a number on your Ravener swarms, heh. Of course, I can see my Knights get destroyed by your Monstrous Creatures, and that's actually quite fun. It'll be quite the awesome kaiju battle report.

    6. The Charge Phase and the Fight Phase are now separate Phases, however the restriction is on using the SAME Stratagem more than once per Phase, but you can use as many DIFFERENT Stratagems as you want. So Command Re-Roll and Counter-Offensive can be used in the same Phase. You could also use Command Re-Roll on one Morale test and then Insane Bravery on a different one in the same Morale phase.

      Having the Charge and Fight Phases separate now is one of my favourite things. Not only does it simplify rules, but I really like being able to get a Command Re-Roll on a Charge distance, and still Re-Roll an Attack or Damage die later :) (although, as you could see I burn through CP like a madman, using up all 12 by the end of turn 3 haha).

      This was definitely not the best list for her, it's true. I think some good heavy shooting would have complimented the three Knights MUCH better than more melee Wolves (Knights are dangerous enough in melee). She definitely had a weaker list but she usually plays Eldar, haha, so we weren't sure what to take (this was the first time she ever used Knights as well, but I think she did really well with them).

      That Thermal Cannon though... WOW. That thing is a BEAST.

      I actually REALLY used to enjoy games against Ad Mech in 7th ed, I can't wait to play against them in 8th! You fly out to Canada, haha, we'll play a few games :P

    7. I'll have to bring my armies along, which is going to be tough. But I'll be back in Minnesota during the fall, so maybe...I dunno. We shall see. might be more feasible for her to use 3 Wraithknights and an Aeldari Craftworld or Drukhari Battalion, but I'm no expert on Eldar.

      Good for her, though. My Knight Errant fluffed his thermal cannon shots and failed to kill even a single Baal Predator after 2 turns of shooting, but I'm glad your wife had better luck with it. On the other hand, my Knight Paladin had better luck than your wife's.

  3. Hi
    I think your opponent failed for a couple of reasons, as stated pretty much already.

    Don’t feel bad for winning. Sounds like the opponent tried to control the game from the start by insisting on a matched play point system, then he didn’t even have a full 2,000 points. He also brought an army designed for 7th ed. It’s not your fault he forgot to do things like deep strike his death company. Also tactics play a huge part in 8th ed, and mobility is key. With the new edition of WH40k being more balanced, dice rolls come into it more, meaning you had some lucky and he had some bad, like failing his dread armour save etc.

    Around these parts, the true measure of an opponent takes place after the game. Shaking hands win, lose or draw is one thing. For your opponent to argue after the game, after he lost/quit, that you had used ‘illegal detachments’ and demanded you add up your points total again, insisting you had made a mistake… well we call that bad sportsmanship. In a local GW behaviour like that is frowned upon and occasionally the store manager has had words with those people. Sometimes we never see them again, but sometimes all they need is reminding it’s just a game and they’re ok. Especially if they are prepared to listen to advice about tactics or how they went wrong, and then they understand and can prepare for next time. Still your game was nowhere near as bad a reaction to some people I have seen, even in tournaments, like breaking others figures, throwing chairs around or even hitting other dudes in the face! Yes, I’m serious that has happened!

    Hey, I also know a couple of Knight players upset because in 8th their cost has gone up and their ability to dish out firepower has diminished, what with Strength D weapons gone etc. That said their survivability with number of wounds is better. So who knows if that evens out. Interesting that points were used in your game, meaning if power rating numbers were used you can actually get more knights into a list, or even add those carapace weapons etc!

    Who knows, if enough people complain super heavies or knights in 8th are broken, because they can’t insta-kill them in 1 or 2 turns, maybe next year GW will nerf them in the yearly update!!!

    1. Thanks for the reply. But I really do hope Games Workshop doesn't nerft them. Jesse above ran a game against them and actually found them quite balanced. Seems like it takes a good list to bring them down, and he didn't even tailor his list to kill super-heavies. I probably need to play a few more games to find out!

  4. A good read, thanks for posting, just helping my excitement for 8th!